Author Topic: Statins Again  (Read 4070 times)

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Offline graj0

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #15 on: 06 July 2015, 05:19:33 PM »
http://www.express.co.uk/news/sunday/588889/Statin-drug-linked-increasing-side-effects-deaths

Unfortunately The Express, but this just goes on and on and . . . . .
Graham
Type II since '97? Metformin 2 gm, Gliclazide 0 gm (was 240), Januvia 0 mg (was 25 mg) Atorvastatin 0 mg (was 40), Doxazosin 8 mg, Amlodapine 10 mg, Lisinopril 20 mg.

Offline Alan

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #16 on: 07 July 2015, 05:26:05 AM »
http://www.express.co.uk/news/sunday/588889/Statin-drug-linked-increasing-side-effects-deaths

Unfortunately The Express, but this just goes on and on and . . . . .

Are those in your family who have your genes but are not yet diagnosed still taking statins?

It may be the Express, but there is an underlying paper. I did a search on the author mentioned. This is just one of the papers he has been involved with:

Increased risk of diabetes with statin treatment is associated with impaired insulin sensitivity and insulin secretion: a 6 year follow-up study of the METSIM cohort


Quote
Results

Participants on statin treatment (N  = 2,142) had a 46% increased risk of type 2 diabetes (adjusted HR 1.46 [95% CI 1.22, 1.74]). The risk was dose dependent for simvastatin and atorvastatin. Statin treatment significantly increased 2 h glucose (2hPG) and glucose AUC of an OGTT at follow-up, with a nominally significant increase in fasting plasma glucose (FPG). Insulin sensitivity was decreased by 24% and insulin secretion by 12% in individuals on statin treatment (at FPG and 2hPG <5.0 mmol/l) compared with individuals without statin treatment (p < 0.01). Decreases in insulin sensitivity and insulin secretion were dose dependent for simvastatin and atorvastatin.

Conclusions/interpretation

Statin treatment increased the risk of type 2 diabetes by 46%, attributable to decreases in insulin sensitivity and insulin secretion.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
There is nothing I could eat I like more than my eyes.
Type 2 Diabetes - A Personal Journey (latest: Small New York Baked Low Carb Cheesecake)
Born Under a Wandering Star (Latest:Dambulla, Sigiriya and Polonuwarra, Sri Lanka)

Offline lozzark

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #17 on: 07 July 2015, 12:32:30 PM »
So presumably there is a likelihood that statins will make an existing case of diabetes worse.  Nearly all T2 diabetics are told they need a statin to reduce the risk of heart disease and/or their cholesterol is too high.
T2 Dx 2000 Metformin Gliclazide HbA1c 53 BP 129/79 Cholesterol 5.4, HDL 1.16, LDL 2.9.

Offline graj0

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #18 on: 07 July 2015, 05:13:30 PM »

Are those in your family who have your genes but are not yet diagnosed still taking statins?

It may be the Express, but there is an underlying paper. I did a search on the author mentioned. This is just one of the papers he has been involved with:


I only have one relative taking statins and not diabetic. My Aunt who is in her late 70s has just been told that she has a dicky ticker, dicky enough to hold up some urgent surgery which they can do with an epidural but it's just a question of persuading my Aunt.

Apologies for not digging deeper, the Express has been guilty of mis interpreting a lot of medical research in the research and I would normally check out their claims.  I've spent far too long digging deeper, especially with statin issues. I have made my decision, right or wrong, it could now be up to God.
Graham
Type II since '97? Metformin 2 gm, Gliclazide 0 gm (was 240), Januvia 0 mg (was 25 mg) Atorvastatin 0 mg (was 40), Doxazosin 8 mg, Amlodapine 10 mg, Lisinopril 20 mg.

Offline lozzark

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #19 on: 08 July 2015, 01:10:25 AM »

Are those in your family who have your genes but are not yet diagnosed still taking statins?

It may be the Express, but there is an underlying paper. I did a search on the author mentioned. This is just one of the papers he has been involved with:


I only have one relative taking statins and not diabetic. My Aunt who is in her late 70s has just been told that she has a dicky ticker, dicky enough to hold up some urgent surgery which they can do with an epidural but it's just a question of persuading my Aunt.

Apologies for not digging deeper, the Express has been guilty of mis interpreting a lot of medical research in the research and I would normally check out their claims.  I've spent far too long digging deeper, especially with statin issues. I have made my decision, right or wrong, it could now be up to God.

Hi Graham,  What was your decision?

Research specific to old ladies shows their longevity increases in line with increased cholesterol.  All research has never shown any women benefit from statins to any appreciable degree.  People seem to think that arteriosclerosis is to do with the heart.  Well it is to do with the arteries and just because they have a "dicky ticker" does not mean statins are in any way going to benefit them.  Quite the reverse really because the heart depends on Co enzyme Q10 and statins reduce this antioxidant, may be putting the heart into grater peril.
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/coenzyme-q10-for-heart-failure-the-hype-and-the-science/

I interpret "dicky ticker" to mean heart failure (which means lower heart output).  Lower cholesterol is associated with increased mortality in people with heart failure.  http://www.uptodate.com/contents/statin-therapy-in-patients-with-heart-failure  implying the last thing you should do to someone with heart failure is deliberately reduce their cholesterol.
http://www.healthline.com/health/coq10-and-statins#Overview1
Multiple studies have shown that statins can decrease coenzyme Q10 levels.  (hardly surprising really because statins are HMG-COA reductase inhibitors, and CoQ10 depends on that pathway for its generation).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3096178/


http://www.internetwks.com/owen/coq10.htm  Makes interesting reading, implying taking vitamin C and CoQ10 will be beneficial and statins not so in any one with or without heart failure.
 
T2 Dx 2000 Metformin Gliclazide HbA1c 53 BP 129/79 Cholesterol 5.4, HDL 1.16, LDL 2.9.

Offline Alan

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #20 on: 08 July 2015, 02:31:08 AM »
Research specific to old ladies shows their longevity increases in line with increased cholesterol.

It took me a lot of persuasion of both my mum and her doctor to get her to drop the 80mg lipitor he had her on over five years ago.

She is now 90 and doing well. She is a bit too alert, she still keeps telling her son what to do too often.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
There is nothing I could eat I like more than my eyes.
Type 2 Diabetes - A Personal Journey (latest: Small New York Baked Low Carb Cheesecake)
Born Under a Wandering Star (Latest:Dambulla, Sigiriya and Polonuwarra, Sri Lanka)

Offline graj0

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #21 on: 08 July 2015, 07:28:20 AM »

Hi Graham,  What was your decision?


Statins? Stopped nearly two years ago. The continual leg muscle pain went immediately as did the poor sleep pattern. Brain fog not so sure about although I have my moments when my memory and ability to think things through works very well.
On the brain fog front I can sort of quantify what I'm talking about. I like sailing and I'm very interested in navigation, always useful for when the gadgets break down or the power goes. Working out where you are and whether you can or can't get under bridges or over obstacles is the sort of stuff you have to be able to do and I used to be able to do it. I eventually found that even with crib sheets I was struggling to do any calculation, so that's the sort of thing I mean by brain fog. Unable to reason things.

My concern now, especially with muscles, is that after TKR last November and making pretty good progress, there is now some slowing down of muscle improvement despite putting the hours in at the gym. I'm "resting" at the moment because of having my cataract done and I'm not supposed to lift anything heavier than a kettle of water in case the lens slips (what the consultant said). Next month I will start some intensive training because I'm sailing across the Atlantic in November and I would like to improve my strength and shed a few more pounds which has also been tricky.
Graham
Type II since '97? Metformin 2 gm, Gliclazide 0 gm (was 240), Januvia 0 mg (was 25 mg) Atorvastatin 0 mg (was 40), Doxazosin 8 mg, Amlodapine 10 mg, Lisinopril 20 mg.

Offline lozzark

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #22 on: 08 July 2015, 11:00:38 AM »
Hi Graham,


It looks to me that you make the right decision!  Generally I believe that medicines make the body do things it doesn't want to or can't do under normal circumstances.  So for me at my stage, the diabetic meds help me by compensating for what my body can't do.  I have always believed that statins were born out of a desire to make money for big pharma.  Research has shown that statins help middle aged men who have already suffered a heart attack.  Since MI is a leading cause of death, one in three people will have serious levels of furred arteries eventually.  But statins only delays the progress of furred arteries and don't really help very much.  They are far from the panacea doctors seem to think they are.  Furred arteries are most likely a result of western diet and lifestyle.  That is not enough fresh air, exercise and natural varied foods including omega-3.  Giving someone a statin sort of implies it will save them from a heart attack despite western lifestyles and processed foods.
I shunned statins on day one (15 years ago) and have never taken any, so I can't say if I would suffer muscle pains, tiredness or brain fog.  Best wishes for you sailing trip. I can't say I'd like to come with you - for one thing I'd never get in shape!
T2 Dx 2000 Metformin Gliclazide HbA1c 53 BP 129/79 Cholesterol 5.4, HDL 1.16, LDL 2.9.

Offline Alan

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #23 on: 08 July 2015, 11:33:48 PM »
The evidence is slowly changing from a trickle to a stream and will soon become a flood. Another paper on Cholesterol and Statins, this one from Japan.

Ann Nutr Metab 2015;66(suppl 4):1–116
DOI: 10.1159/000381654

Cholesterol and Mortality
(Note it is pdf before you click on it.)

This section states it very clearly for type 2 diabetics; I have added some spacing for clarity and the emphasis is mine but made no other amendments:

Quote
(5) Answering the Main Question Posed in This Chapter

So, are statins actually effective for preventing CHD in type 2 diabetes mellitus in Japan, as the 2012 JAS Guidelines recommend? The answer is unfortunately ‘No’.

There are no such trials supporting the use of statins in patients with type 2 diabetes in Japan. High-quality double-blind trials using only patients with type 2 diabetes as subjects did not show any benefits of statins (Section 4). In fact, statins deteriorate glucose metabolism and increase incident diabetes (Section 2), and the pathophysiological mechanism of statin-induced glucose intolerance has actually been elucidated (Section 3).

JASG2012 set much more stringent target levels of LDL cholesterol for patients with type 2 diabetes than for other subsets of individuals with high cholesterol, yet no trials comparing target LDL cholesterol levels in patients with diabetes have been conducted in Japan or elsewhere in the world to date. We actually consider that using statins is contraindicated for patients with type 2 diabetes.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
There is nothing I could eat I like more than my eyes.
Type 2 Diabetes - A Personal Journey (latest: Small New York Baked Low Carb Cheesecake)
Born Under a Wandering Star (Latest:Dambulla, Sigiriya and Polonuwarra, Sri Lanka)

Offline lozzark

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #24 on: 09 July 2015, 12:39:03 AM »
Thanks Alan,  I suspected as much, but it great to see it spelled out by the Japanese researchers.
T2 Dx 2000 Metformin Gliclazide HbA1c 53 BP 129/79 Cholesterol 5.4, HDL 1.16, LDL 2.9.

Offline Richard157

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #25 on: 10 September 2015, 05:15:14 PM »
Repatha is a new drug for lowering cholesterol, and it is not a statin. It has been approved by the FDA in the US. Is it already in use in the UK? maybe it will serve as an alternative for people who cannot tolerate statins.

http://diatribe.org/fda-approves-repatha-another-new-powerful-cholesterol-lowering-drug?utm_source=diaTribe&utm_campaign=004db2f9a0-diaTribe_Issue_92&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_75cdadd67f-004db2f9a0-411810781
Type 1 for 70 years, A1c-5.9, using the MM 523 pump, no diabetes complications.

Offline Pattidevans

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #26 on: 10 September 2015, 08:08:31 PM »
Repatha is a new drug for lowering cholesterol, and it is not a statin. It has been approved by the FDA in the US. Is it already in use in the UK? maybe it will serve as an alternative for people who cannot tolerate statins.

http://diatribe.org/fda-approves-repatha-another-new-powerful-cholesterol-lowering-drug?utm_source=diaTribe&utm_campaign=004db2f9a0-diaTribe_Issue_92&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_75cdadd67f-004db2f9a0-411810781

Ah, it's the PSKC9 drug we've discussed.  Not that great and actually should we really be reducing cholesterol?  Thank you for letting us know it's approved in the US Richard.
Patti


Type 1.  Mis-diagnosed T2 May 2003, finally had CPeptide test 15/7/11 and proper diagnosis 1/9/11.  Now pumping Apidra with Roche Spirit Combo pump. Hba1c 6.1 April 2016.


© 2015 Patti Evans

Offline Richard157

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #27 on: 11 September 2015, 01:18:55 AM »
I had a total cholesterol of 280+ many years ago. I have used been using statins for 10+ years. My total cholesterol is now 138 (100-199 preferred), HDL is 60 (>39 preferred), and LDL is 44 (0-99 preferred). My doctor and I are pleased with that, but I do sometimes thank my muscle weakness and fatigue may be partially due to statins. Maybe my age (76) may have something to do with that.  ;)
Type 1 for 70 years, A1c-5.9, using the MM 523 pump, no diabetes complications.

Offline Pattidevans

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #28 on: 11 September 2015, 03:55:14 PM »
Hi Richard

Sorry I'm unable to process those numbers, hopefully someone can translate for us - possibly Alan?

However it does seem your HDL is nicely high.  I'd be more inclined to blame your statins than your age for the weak muscles.
Patti


Type 1.  Mis-diagnosed T2 May 2003, finally had CPeptide test 15/7/11 and proper diagnosis 1/9/11.  Now pumping Apidra with Roche Spirit Combo pump. Hba1c 6.1 April 2016.


© 2015 Patti Evans

Offline GrammaBear

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Re: Statins Again
« Reply #29 on: 11 September 2015, 04:15:21 PM »
I had a total cholesterol of 280+ many years ago. I have used been using statins for 10+ years. My total cholesterol is now 138 (100-199 preferred), HDL is 60 (>39 preferred), and LDL is 44 (0-99 preferred). My doctor and I are pleased with that, but I do sometimes thank my muscle weakness and fatigue may be partially due to statins. Maybe my age (76) may have something to do with that.  ;)

Muscle weakness and fatigue are a side effect of statins that are down-played by every doctor I've ever been to see.  It does not matter to them how I feel while taking statin drugs, all that matters to them is pleasing the drug manufacturers.  Not one doctor ever thought I was telling them the truth when I stated "I don't feel well."
Type 1
Tandem Tslim pump Oct 2015
Dexcom G4 CGM Sep 2007
A1C 6.5%~ Sep 2017