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Offline J19821

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Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« on: 06 May 2018, 06:56:17 AM »
I live in Switzerland but am English speaking, which is why I find this forum useful. I’m 64 years old, 5’3” and 62 kilograms and my initial H1Abc - or whatever-was 7.3 in November 2013. I’ve been on Januvia 100 mg since metformin did not suit me and it is now 6.1. I’ve been vegetarian all my life eating eggs and dairy products.
I’ve been trying to cut or at least reduce carbs over last 10 days but my fasting blood sugar fluctuated from 77mgdl to 122 mgdl, much higher than ever before. I want to try the Newcastle diet with shakes as eating real food makes me cheat on portion size and when eating out, indulge in sugary treats or alcohol. Is the Newcastle diet for me? Should I aim to lose 10 kilograms? How long will the diet last for me?

Offline Pattidevans

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #1 on: 06 May 2018, 11:34:18 AM »
Hi there J and welcome to the forum.

I don't quite understand when you say "I’ve been trying to cut or at least reduce carbs over last 10 days but my fasting blood sugar fluctuated from 77mgdl to 122 mgdl, much higher than ever before." because 77 is 4.2 and you wouldn't really want it lower than that.  122 is only 6.7 in our way of measuring BGs and really not that high.  Can I ask when you test in relation to meals, because that would be the way to find out whether low carb works for you (though I don't actually know anyone it doesn't work for).  See Jennifer's Advice for a helpful regime of testing.

It's hard to say whether the Newcastle diet would work for you.  In the original study I believe the subjects were relatively recently diagnosed.  I mean are you hoping to reverse your diabetes?  If so then give it a go...here's a handy leaflet which explains it well. I think in the original study it took 2 months, but if it doesn't work you will need to have a diet that controls BGs and that you can stick to for the rest of your life.  Perhaps Alan's Test, Review, Adjust advice would help you.

Anyway, have a read of the three links I have given you and come back and ask any questions you might find helpful.
Patti


Type 1.  Mis-diagnosed T2 May 2003, finally had CPeptide test 15/7/11 and proper diagnosis 1/9/11.  Now pumping Apidra with Roche Spirit Combo pump. Hba1c 6.1 Sept 2017.  45 (6.3) April 2018.


© 2015 Patti Evans

Offline J19821

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #2 on: 06 May 2018, 02:28:32 PM »
Thanks very much - the links are very helpful.

I’m wondering if my body has become more sensitive to carb intake after I started the low carb diet. I was socked with  fbs of 122 mgdl this morning because I hadn’t gone beyond 1300 calories and I’d walked for an hour yesterday. But yes I had eaten some 30-50 grams of chocolate desserts and had half a glass of champagne. This happened twice during the last 10 days.

My pp bs is usually quite normal - well below 120 mgdl. I’m wondering if the NC diet where the best results are for those who lose 10-15 kilograms is for me. But I do want to reverse my diabetes and I was first diagnosed in 2013.

Offline Pattidevans

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #3 on: 06 May 2018, 03:55:16 PM »

I’m wondering if my body has become more sensitive to carb intake after I started the low carb diet. I was socked with  fbs of 122 mgdl this morning because I hadn’t gone beyond 1300 calories and I’d walked for an hour yesterday. But yes I had eaten some 30-50 grams of chocolate desserts and had half a glass of champagne. This happened twice during the last 10 days.

Without doubt chocolate dessert will do that.  Alcohol normally lowers BGs long-term as the liver gets busy processing it and cannot produce glucose.  If you have been low carbing then you could perhaps have become more sensitive to them.
Quote
My pp bs is usually quite normal - well below 120 mgdl. I’m wondering if the NC diet where the best results are for those who lose 10-15 kilograms is for me. But I do want to reverse my diabetes and I was first diagnosed in 2013.

How long after eating do you test?  You may be missing the peak.  To be honest, we're not doctors just other diabetics and therefore we can't say whether or not the NC is good for you personally or not.
Patti


Type 1.  Mis-diagnosed T2 May 2003, finally had CPeptide test 15/7/11 and proper diagnosis 1/9/11.  Now pumping Apidra with Roche Spirit Combo pump. Hba1c 6.1 Sept 2017.  45 (6.3) April 2018.


© 2015 Patti Evans

Offline nytquill17

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #4 on: 06 May 2018, 05:32:11 PM »
Just a caveat: what alcohol does to your blood sugar has a lot to do with what you're drinking and how much of it you drink. Alcohol itself does lower BGs through its effect on liver function, but some wines and beers have a high enough sugar content that it counteracts this effect and gives an overall rise - and of course ciders and a lot of mixed drinks can be quite sugary.

However, champagne is quite low in carbs as drinks go, and 30-50g of dessert is not a whole lot either (I think you meant that the dessert itself weighed 30-50g, not that it contained 30-50g of carbs, right?). It's likely that the dessert is the culprit in the slightly higher fasting the next day. But I think something to be aware of is that even this higher fasting, although shocking for you, is in the goal range (that is, the ideal range) of fasting BGs for a diagnosed diabetic, which is 70-130. Now, if you were seeing a consistent upward trend in your fasting BGs such that you're approaching the upper end of that goal range, that might be more indicative that you needed a change in treatment plan. Instead, what I'm seeing is that you generally meet ideal targets for fasting, post-prandial, and A1c, and you had a bit of a blip one day after eating some chocolate the night before (a blip that wasn't even technically out of goal range - which doesn't make it any less shocking for you, compared to what you normally see, but it's not anything to panic over just yet!)

I think it is possible that people become more carb sensitive after low-carbing for a while. Your body has "switched over" to not having so many carbs to process, and when you "switch back" temporarily it can be caught off guard and need some time to ramp up that processing ability again. However, again, what you're seeing is a reading that is still within ideal targets (if higher than normal for you), so I'm not sure that we can really consider this as a "high reading" that indicates you're more carb sensitive. Bear in mind that BG can fluctuate quite significantly from moment to moment, so you may have seen a somewhat different number just minutes (even seconds) before or after you got that 122. Meters are also not infallible and can have a margin of error of up to 15%. So it's important not to put too much stock in any one single number result, but to look at trends and patterns over time. 

Another thing to bear in mind is that BG can be affected by loads of other things than just what you eat, including but not limited to: the weather, stress (mental/emotional and physical), illness or oncoming illness, injury and healing, exercise (can make BGs go either up or down, it depends on the circumstances), overall activity levels, medication absorption, and so on. So seeing a higher-than-usual number on your meter one day may have been a fluke of the test itself, may have been down to what you ate the night before, or may have been down to any number of factors that you may not even have been aware of at the time.

So, as regards the Newcastle diet, looking purely at your results, I think (though I am not a doctor or a dietitian) what you're doing now is working and I don't really see that you have any desperate need for a change in diet or treatment plan at this point, unless you feel that what you are doing now to achieve these results isn't a sustainable way of living for you in the long term? If the issue is that you struggle with wanting to indulge, especially when you go out (something I think we all face!) a *more* restrictive diet may backfire and increase your desire to go "off piste" rather than curb it. On the other hand, you know yourself best and if you function well within a more rigid structure then it could be that the Newcastle diet might provide you with that structure.

I'm not sure you fit the profile as you aren't recently diagnosed and you don't need to lose 10-15 kg (in my non-medical opinion), so you may not get the expected results. But in the end, no one can really say whether it might benefit you or what might happen if you tried it; the only way to know that is to actually try it, but ideally you should consult your doctor or a dietitian first and get some more official guidance on how to go about it, or whether there might be an approach to diet that would be more suited to your needs - something that gives you routine and is easy to stick to. If you do want to go for the Newcastle protocol specifically, I understand that it's quite strict, so still probably best not to go it alone without any of your HCPs knowing, in case there are any adverse effects you weren't expecting.
T1 DX 1995
Omnipod since 06/04/18 (Novorapid)
 
  ~-~-~-~
"If you can't ride, can you fall?"
"I suppose anyone can fall," said Shasta.
"I mean can you fall and get up again without crying, and mount again and fall again and yet not be afraid of falling?"
"I - I'll try," said Shasta.
  ~C.S. Lewis, The Horse and His Boy
  ~-~-~-~
"There is no answer; seek it lovingly."

Offline J19821

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #5 on: 06 May 2018, 05:59:14 PM »
Wow - I’m glad I joined this forum. You were both super helpful. I just ate a lot of carbs now (hummus, babaganoish, falafel and dates) and tested. After one hour 93 mgdl but after two hours 153 mgdl. So you’re right Pat, earlier I tested after an hour and 15 minutes but in my case the peak may be 2 hours or later. Am going for a long walk now ;)

I’m meeting my doc and dietician on Tuesday and will go prepared to discuss the NC diet - chances are neither has heard of it.

Offline Alan

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #6 on: 06 May 2018, 09:49:08 PM »
Wow - I’m glad I joined this forum. You were both super helpful. I just ate a lot of carbs now (hummus, babaganoish, falafel and dates) and tested. After one hour 93 mgdl but after two hours 153 mgdl. So you’re right Pat, earlier I tested after an hour and 15 minutes but in my case the peak may be 2 hours or later. Am going for a long walk now ;)

I’m meeting my doc and dietician on Tuesday and will go prepared to discuss the NC diet - chances are neither has heard of it.

G'day from the far side of the world.

I'm glad you've read those links, especially Jennifer's advice. I still believe that was the single most important advice I have received from any source since I was diagnosed sixteen years ago.

Some more links; I hope they don't lead to information overload:

Millimoles and Milligrams
When To Test?
I Ate Nothing! Why Are My BGs high?
The 600 Calorie Diet for Type 2 Diabetes

How long you wait after waking before you test fasting may be part of the cause for your variable morning numbers but those desserts will also be part of the problem. But I would not be over-concerned. As others have noted 77(4.3) is fine and 122(6.8 ) is not actually too bad.

From the final one note that I have had no reason to change my opinion since writing that in 2011. Jennifer's advice wil lead you to a way of eating you can maintain for life. The Newcastle diet will not. Maybe I'll change my opinion when ten years have passed and a sufficient number of those who used the method can be shown to have stayed free of complications or meds, but I doubt it.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
There is nothing I could eat I like more than my eyes.
Type 2 Diabetes - A Personal Journey (latest: Slow Cooked Beef Brisket)
Born Under a Wandering Star (Surviving Long-haul Flights in Cattle Class)

Offline J19821

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #7 on: 13 May 2018, 08:14:43 PM »
Just wanted to tell you all that I’ve been on the real food version of the Newcastle diet with 800 calories for the last 4 days and my FBS today was 77 mgdl and weight loss 2 kg. Since I went gradually from 1500 to 1200 to 1000 and now around 800 using MyFitnessPal I didn’t find it so difficult. However, when eating real food with friends I do get tempted to cheat. I’m wondering if being on the recommended shakes better. Can anyone advise?

Offline nytquill17

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #8 on: 13 May 2018, 11:00:37 PM »
Better on what metric? 4 days is not a lot to go on, but so far your FBG looks as good as ever and you've lost some weight, so the diet appears to be having the intended/expected effects. What other effects were you hoping for or what concerns do you have that lead you to ask this question?
T1 DX 1995
Omnipod since 06/04/18 (Novorapid)
 
  ~-~-~-~
"If you can't ride, can you fall?"
"I suppose anyone can fall," said Shasta.
"I mean can you fall and get up again without crying, and mount again and fall again and yet not be afraid of falling?"
"I - I'll try," said Shasta.
  ~C.S. Lewis, The Horse and His Boy
  ~-~-~-~
"There is no answer; seek it lovingly."

Offline Pattidevans

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #9 on: 14 May 2018, 09:14:00 AM »
I did try those shakes a while ago, not doing Newcastle, just wanted to lose a bit of weight.  To be honest I was absolutely starving all the time.  Anyway, even if you do go on shakes, what would you do if you met with friends to eat?
Patti


Type 1.  Mis-diagnosed T2 May 2003, finally had CPeptide test 15/7/11 and proper diagnosis 1/9/11.  Now pumping Apidra with Roche Spirit Combo pump. Hba1c 6.1 Sept 2017.  45 (6.3) April 2018.


© 2015 Patti Evans

Offline lozzark

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #10 on: 14 May 2018, 12:23:48 PM »
I guess I have a different viewpoint on diet. I believe that whatever else you do it is important to ensure your diet contains all the nutrients you need in adequate amounts.  Jennifer's advice is great for reducing and controlling blood glucose but needs attention to ensure all nutrients are consumed. NC diet quite definitely restricts the amount of food you eat and without supplements it is difficult to know the diet is providing a source of all necessary nutrients in adequate amounts.
If food sources are vegetarian, care is needed to ensure all nutrients are covered.  I'm a great believer in eggs, but even these do not supply everything.  Switzerland is one of those countries because of being inland is short on iodine in its soil and hence natural food.  It was the Swiss who first thought of putting iodine in salt to prevent goitre.  But low iodine does more than just produce goitre, it lowers serum thyroxine levels, which in turn reduces the rate at which energy is "burned", promoting weight gain. 
Items that need attention in a vegetarian diet are complete protein (ie all amino acids), omega-3 fatty acid, creatine, iron, vitamin B12 and other B vitamins, Calcium, Zinc & Selenium.  There are lots of articles on the net explaining how to make sure these are in your diet.
Also staying away from processed vegetable oils & margarine and using olive oil and butter instead will reduce inflammation in the body.
High levels of processed vegetable oils and trans-fats are often found in processed foods (along with high levels of sugar), so it is best to avoid these.
It maybe you know all this, but I'm posting just in case.
T2 Dx 2000 Metformin Gliclazide HbA1c 53 BP 129/79 Cholesterol 5.4, HDL 1.16, LDL 2.9.

Offline Alan

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #11 on: 17 May 2018, 02:50:30 AM »
I guess I have a different viewpoint on diet. I believe that whatever else you do it is important to ensure your diet contains all the nutrients you need in adequate amounts.  Jennifer's advice is great for reducing and controlling blood glucose but needs attention to ensure all nutrients are consumed.

Well said. I treated it in two stages. I began with Jennifer's advice, then began reviewing the overall menu once I had blood glucose under good control. I go into more detail here: What is a Balanced Diet For a Type 2 Diabetic?

Quote
Switzerland is one of those countries because of being inland is short on iodine in its soil and hence natural food.  It was the Swiss who first thought of putting iodine in salt to prevent goitre.  But low iodine does more than just produce goitre, it lowers serum thyroxine levels, which in turn reduces the rate at which energy is "burned", promoting weight gain.

Australia also has low iodine soil content. The authorities required iodine to be added to salt here long before I was born; I grew up sprinkling it on my food. It is now also required in bread in some states.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
There is nothing I could eat I like more than my eyes.
Type 2 Diabetes - A Personal Journey (latest: Slow Cooked Beef Brisket)
Born Under a Wandering Star (Surviving Long-haul Flights in Cattle Class)

Offline J19821

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #12 on: 19 May 2018, 10:20:08 AM »
I’m so grateful to all of you for your advice. I ordered 10 days supply of shakes but found they were too sweet for my taste and left me hungry after two hours. So I’ve gone back to real food. I’ve been on 8-900 calories for 10 days now. My fasting blood sugar was 72 mgdl yesterday - had steadily decreased - but today it spiked up to 97 mgdl today - ate a chocolate mint piece and delicious baked lemon ricotta yesterday! Learned my lesson!

Offline sedge

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #13 on: 19 May 2018, 05:05:18 PM »
That's not a spike, undiabetic people's BG range in between low 4s (72 ish) and mid 7s (126) so your 97 is just over 5, about 5.4, hence firmly and completely normal.

Here in the UK we measure BG in mmol/L, not mg/dL, so I've had to divide your numbers by 18 for them to make proper sense to me!

What we call a spike is when it shoots up from eg 5 (90) to 9+ (162) or from 7 to over 10.
Jenny

T1 DX 1972, pumping Novorapid 24/05/11

HbA1c - 7/07 8.7, 1/08 7.8, 9/08 8.4, 3/09 7.3, 7/09 7.2, 12/09 7.3, 11/10 8.1, 2/11 8.6, 9/11 6.5 2/12 6.4  5/12 50/6.7  11/12 52/6.9  01/13 46/6.4  06/16 46/6.4  12/16 45/6.4

Offline nytquill17

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Re: Not obese -want to try Newcastle diet
« Reply #14 on: 19 May 2018, 08:58:48 PM »
While I don't at all wish to criticize you for being motivated to closely monitor your BGs and put significant effort into making changes that will help regulate them, I'm concerned that you are giving entirely too much weight to normal BG fluctuations, in terms of how much they seem to worry you and the efforts you are going to to try and respond to them.

BGs and FBGs will fluctuate normally day to day, hour to hour and even minute to minute in both diabetic and non-diabetic people. Plus any variation of 30 points or less (1.7 in UK numbers) falls within the known margin of error for home testing meters and is to be disregarded, i.e. not considered as meaningful change.

As Sedge has said, non-diabetic BGs range from 70-130 without their being any cause for concern. That is, the body is well able to deal with BGs that are within that range without any damage being caused, in fact it is quite *designed* to do so. In other words, a fasting or pre-meal reading of 96 is not better or worse than one of 72 in terms of its effects on the body, and not something that you need to go to any lengths (such as avoiding foods you enjoy) to control or "improve."

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't be disciplined in your diet or invested in your diabetes care - clearly you are, and clearly it's working for you so far! But I worry that these may also be signs that you are harbouring unrealistic expectations that will eventually come back to bite you, or living with a lot of worry and fear. Only you know what works best for you, though! And I'm glad that you are satisfied with the results thus far. In the end it's you that has to be happy with your life and with the various measurements of your current and future health, no one else!
T1 DX 1995
Omnipod since 06/04/18 (Novorapid)
 
  ~-~-~-~
"If you can't ride, can you fall?"
"I suppose anyone can fall," said Shasta.
"I mean can you fall and get up again without crying, and mount again and fall again and yet not be afraid of falling?"
"I - I'll try," said Shasta.
  ~C.S. Lewis, The Horse and His Boy
  ~-~-~-~
"There is no answer; seek it lovingly."